[VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

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HankHill
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[VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by HankHill »

This night, I brought some regulars from FF to try the Saxton Hell engine to find out what they like and dislike, particularly what could be brought over to make the FF VSH servers even more fun, interesting, and subsequently superior. Among the list was Juju, SneakehJeff, Paula Dean, Weebman, MrWong2001, and [Chaos] [Rainbow] Life|Trade.tf, with other users like Polar and Shankin already knowing the engine. These are a list of suggestions that I (as well as quite a few of us) would want to see implemented.

1. The InvisiWatch Mechanic for the Cloak and Dagger. I know I brought this up in the Dead Ringer thread Jonite started, but I want to bring this up as its own idea, especially now that we have a better idea as to how it works. Here are pros and cons:

+ Cloaking and Decloaking is instant.
+ Backstabs give you a 15 second speed boost, making you equal speed to Hale (and slightly faster than normal when raged, but he will still easily catch up).

- Despite the cloaking being instant, it still takes .5 seconds to initiate an attack, something you must still take into consideration.
- You get no damage resistances while cloaked, meaning one hit is always death.

This would give the craftier Spies a reasonable buff with a significant nerf. Juju, as the best Spy of the list, agrees that an implementation of this system for the Cloak and Dagger would give the class a third playstyle that caters to experts, so long as they keep active and remain diligent in their evasiveness, while punishing those that very much rely on the damage resistance in the current engine to keep alive.

2. The Horseless Headless Horseman Jr. buffs. HHHJ gets three buffs in comparison to the FF VSH server.

+ HHHJ gains a melee wall climb similar to Sniper, but still slightly faster to keep up.
+ HHHJ gains a throwable teleport with a cooldown about twice that of a super jump.
+ Raged players now have the scared logo above their heads.

We've been talking about this boss needing buffs and this would be the way to do it in my eyes. This also means that Snipers with Bushwacka can keep their ability to BushJump, no longer hindering them just to balance an underwhelming boss (in its current state, that is). All other factors of the boss are the same. Everyone that played it love it and would like to see these changes made.

3. Adding two new bosses: Cave Johnson and the Astronaut. If these two are part of Freak Fortress, then let it be (I have no clue if they are or not), but these do bear mention.

Cave Johnson launches Combustable Lemons (Grenade Launcher with a 3 Clip that sets enemies on fire).
Rage scares closeby enemies (CBS range).
During your short rage, your grenades turn into rockets that still set enemies on fire.
Themes that play: "The Part Where He Kills You" as the normal theme, "Your Precious Moon" when there are 1/2 players left.

- You have absolutely no Melee attack. You must rely on shooting to deal damage, which will hurt those that are used to melee aiming.
- Juju is scary as this boss.

The Astronaut is an...interesting case as well.

The Astronaut has low gravity, which works well when jumping, but knockback is also made more of an issue.
The Astronaut has a B.A.S.E Jumper, but we don't have to add that... ;)
Theme is SMB2 Overworld, but we don't have to use THAT, do we?

+ Rage Range is even longer than Hale's.

- Knockback, as far as I could tell, is normal, similar to CBS. Combined with the Low Gravity, this can make it difficult to close changes.

These are the big changes I wanted to talk about in regards to everything. There are some neutral/lesser changes that are obviously not as important, but I will list for discussion.

- Soldier/Demoman airshots play a sound.
- Soldier's Horn Secondaries play a silly sound when used.
- The Mantreads gives extra height on rocket jumps, but have no speed buff (obviously tested before, but I bring it up again for the purpose of discussion).
- Pyro's Airblast, when used in midair, can push Pyro back.

There are also some points that we disagreed with, as they would be too overpowered:

- The Crusader's Crossbow has a significant damage buff, reaching in the 300+ up to 600 per shot, distance pending.
- Taunt crits seem to last slightly longer.
- Engineer's Teleporters are two-way.

These are the changes that came to mind for all of us, so I'd like to see how these are taken with the rest of the community here.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by Rigby! »

Some of these suggestions are interesting...


1.The InvisiWatch Mechanic for the Cloak and Dagger. No
This idea is not a bad one. But you neglate the fact that a weapon like this exist, The Big Earner. This would really stall out rounds more in my opinion because of the instant invisibility. If it was to be added, the damage resistance would be a good stay.

2.The Horseless Headless Horseman Jr. buffs. I agree with most of the ideas
The HHHJ with a sniper like wall climbing ability would really help the boss and give a more flexable and overall enjoyable boss to the linear teleportation that we have now. However, I don't like the idea of a throwable teleport, it would spice up the boss more, but with the teleportation already available I don't see a purpose for this. I agree with snipers keeping wall climp ability when HHHJ is active.

3.Adding two new bosses: Cave Johnson and the Astronaut. No to both
The bosses in my eyes have a lot of flaws, to be plain and simple, if you want Cave Johnson or Astronaut, go to Freak Fortress. Saxton Hale is a more simplistic gamemode compared to the +90 bosses available in Freak Fortress. And I don't think they would fit in with the other bosses.


For the other small ideas you had


Soldier/Demoman airshots play a sound. No
This would be very irritating, cool, I got an airshot. The only way I would want a system like that is if I could disable it.

Soldier's Horn Secondaries play a silly sound when used. No
Same as before, this would probably be more irritating than fun, depending on the sound, volume, etc.

The Mantreads gives extra height on rocket jumps, but have no speed buff No
This would give soldiers more of a ability to rocket jump for goomba stomps. But at the same time, promotes trolling and stalling.

Pyro's Airblast, when used in midair, can push Pyro back. No
Pyro already has a rocket jump feature with his flare guns. There is no point for this.


I do not really understand this last section of your post, so I will try my best to explain what I think about these ideas.


The Crusader's Crossbow has a significant damage buff. No
If you are referring to buffing the crossbow, I disagree, the crossbow is in a fine state of doing about 100 to 300 damage. As medic is not supposed to be a offensive class.

Taunt crits seem to last slightly longer. ?
I have no idea what you are talking about here, most classes have a set 5 second period of taunt crits, excluding the soldier with 3 seconds, and the medic with a longer taunt crit durration I believe.

Engineer's Teleporters are two-way. No
The idea behind this is flawed and selfish, this would promote stalling rounds by teleporting across the map and wasting so much more time. And making telefragging a lot less hard. If this was added, in my opinion, telefragging should do only 4500 damage instead of 9000 damage.


Some of these ideas I can agree with, but others would flat out destroy the gamemode. Remember, some of these changes might be coming, the Saxton Hale Server is behind on the version if I am correct. So HHHJ shouldn't be a problem if the server was updated. I do not know that completely.
Last edited by Rigby! on Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by sambawarkiddo »

Frankly I like our servers the way they are. If I want basic VSH, I'll play VSH. If I want more of a variety and a challenge, I'll play Freak Fortress.
I oppose to the notion of taking specific traits from other servergroups. If you want those perks, that what those servers are for. Anything else would seem like attempting to eliminate competition, and potentially cause unnecessary rivalry, or even bring cancerous players to our servers solely to bag out the things we would possibly gain from that server.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by Idjit »

At least in my opinion, everything you suggested outside of changing HHH slightly is a flawed, or otherwise needless change.

1. Already addressed the watch changes in Catface's posts.

2. We're working with the idea of making changes to HHH, although I'm not exactly sure what's possible or in the works.

3. This is VSH. If you have boss suggestions, put them in the FF2 suggestions thread.

The rest seems rather pointless, as another item already does it's job. We've also already tried implementing your mantread idea, but it conflicted witht he gunboats. That is why we have our mantreads the way they are.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by Armen »

sambawarkiddo wrote:Frankly I like our servers the way they are. If I want basic VSH, I'll play VSH. If I want more of a variety and a challenge, I'll play Freak Fortress.
I oppose to the notion of taking specific traits from other servergroups. If you want those perks, that what those servers are for. Anything else would seem like attempting to eliminate competition, and potentially cause unnecessary rivalry, or even bring cancerous players to our servers solely to bag out the things we would possibly gain from that server.
I think you read the thread wrong, Samba.
When he said FF he meant Fire Friendly and Saxton Hell is another group of servers.
Last edited by Armen on Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by jonite1526 »

I am against everything except the HHH changes and the mantreads changes.

However, since we currently we are unable to implement those changes to the mantreads, it will not happen.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by sambawarkiddo »

Armen wrote:
sambawarkiddo wrote:Frankly I like our servers the way they are. If I want basic VSH, I'll play VSH. If I want more of a variety and a challenge, I'll play Freak Fortress.
I oppose to the notion of taking specific traits from other servergroups. If you want those perks, that what those servers are for. Anything else would seem like attempting to eliminate competition, and potentially cause unnecessary rivalry, or even bring cancerous players to our servers solely to bag out the things we would possibly gain from that server.
I think you read the thread wrong, Samba.
When he said FF he meant Fire Friendly and Saxton Hell is another group of servers.
I'm very aware what he's talking about.
There's also differences in our VSH and Freak Fortress.

There's pretty much no need to go and take ideas from other servergroups.
Last edited by sambawarkiddo on Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by Dongle »

I'm ok with the idea regarding to HHH, but I'm against everything else. Like Samba said, if you want to play vanilla, play VSH. If you want something more, go to FF2. Our servers are unique and should stay that way.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by Armen »

sambawarkiddo wrote:
Armen wrote:
sambawarkiddo wrote:Frankly I like our servers the way they are. If I want basic VSH, I'll play VSH. If I want more of a variety and a challenge, I'll play Freak Fortress.
I oppose to the notion of taking specific traits from other servergroups. If you want those perks, that what those servers are for. Anything else would seem like attempting to eliminate competition, and potentially cause unnecessary rivalry, or even bring cancerous players to our servers solely to bag out the things we would possibly gain from that server.
I think you read the thread wrong, Samba.
When he said FF he meant Fire Friendly and Saxton Hell is another group of servers.
I'm very aware what he's talking about.
There's also differences in our VSH and Freak Fortress.

There's pretty much no need to go and take ideas from other servergroups.
I skipped over where he said Freak Fortress, my bad.
Last edited by Armen on Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [VSH] Suggestions related to Saxton Hell

Post by HankHill »

Rigby! wrote:I do not really understand this last section of your post
The last portion were ideas from Saxton Hell that even I disagreed with, but posted for the purpose of discussion. I didn't expect anybody to really agree with much, anyways, but I enjoy the conversation created from bringing it up.
Rigby! wrote:However, I don't like the idea of a throwable teleport, it would spice up the boss more, but with the teleportation already available I don't see a purpose for this.
I'll elaborate to the best of my abilities.

HHHJ's throwable teleport is very...odd to use. You throw, wherever it lands is where you end up. It still takes much longer to get to higher places (even combined with the MeleeClimb) and its cooldown is at least ten seconds--I'll have to double check later, but I'm sure it was closer to 13 or something. It's a pain to aim with, though--if you want to play and have a look yourself, I can gather people to show you what I mean. The short point is that the combination of it AND a MeleeClimb would give HHHJ just the right amount of mobility that it needs, especially considering that it's slower than the other Hales.

At some point today, I'm wanting to go to the map list to see if there are any they have we don't (the lineup here is vastly superior due to the variety and just the fact that Warehouse exists, but there are a couple that we might be missing). Yes I know the existence of Lolcano and no I refuse to recommend it here. That has to be the worst possible Hale map I've ever played, worse than Pool Day.

I am pretty satisfied with how the thread was received. At least there was ONE thing that we could agree with to a point (maybe two if you count the Mantreads, but we can't really change that for the time being).
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